Anyways, GW's release of The Old World sorta lit a fire under that fixation again, for myself and several friends, and once more I hear the call of The Great Horned Rat (and have just a bit of free time in the evenings).
After The Old World's somewhat remarkable, somewhat facepalm launch I waited as others with baited breath for the Legacy PDFs to see what GW had done to our poor neglected ratboys. I wasn't expecting the worst, so much as I had no idea what to expect, however the earlier released guide to basing for the armies at least gave a glimpse as to what troops were getting included, and it was promising, IMO.
Biggest glaring omission as a Skaven player was Vermin Lord. Even with a sigh of regret, I do get it, it's kinda OP for the theme. I'd say it fit The Old World lore of being a time period when Chaos was at a wane and so Daemons didn't show up, (well, until you read the Chaos Daemons list, but... it's Chaos Daemons,"OP" is their theme). But, I love that model. The original one, the tiny, scaled down Rat Daemon for culty ratbois (with a bit of iconography appropriated from sadly unpersoned Malal, as I've talked about before). And while I'm pretty sure I can convince most opponents in my gaming circle to let me introduce it with some very subdued house rules, that remains an omission from the Skaven army list that makes me frowny face emoji.
So, anyways, I'm here today to share some thoughts on the Legacy pdfs after getting a good chance to digest them, because it's something hobby-related I'm excited to talk about and I'd like to ride this wave of excitement to a finished Grand Skaven Oldhammer army, which was essentially why I started this blog in the first place.
There may be some digressions along the way. This one is stream of consciousness fueled by coffee.
To preface, the announcement that GW made (and they then preceded to re-iterate frequently and firmly that I actually laughed out loud when I saw it there printed on the first page of every legacy pdf), that the Legacy lists were to "Forever Be Excluded" from the official TOW and this was the last we'd see of them, forever and ever, turned out to be mildly controversial. I understand why but I did not share the negative reaction.
I looked at it as we were not going to be included in the power creep that inevitably plagues GW's approach to game design. We would become outmoded as swiftly as the Legacy lists released at the launch of AOS. But the ray of sunshine in comparisons there was the Horus Heresy's analogous legacy lists, that GW has done surprisingly well by.
I was completely OK with Skaven not being included in TOW's phase one metaplot campaign, as long as they gave a list that was functional and playable with both the other Legacy pdfs and the original presentation of the TOW army lists. I am an Oldhammerer, I am fine with playing editions that are frozen in time at a specific spot. For TOW, since that spot is the launch for the foreseeable future, my entire evaluation of TOW will be regarding it, and the basic army lists, as a complete game (just currently BYOM).
So yeah, I was rather pleased. That left a lot of leeway for them to present the lists as they were in the context of The Old World we were familiar with. And, I've never had any plans to visit, let alone take part in, an official GW Tournament. Wargaming for me is drinks with friends in the study/basement/garage playing army men in the late evening while we discuss ephemera.
Moreover, I really like TOW's basic rules, on first (and second, third) read-through, and am interested to see how they work in play. The army lists in Realms of Chaos and the goodguy book were all quite nice. Flavourful, seemingly balanced, and nothing that blatantly stuck out as OP or NOP. Most importantly (to me) they seemed to be a good translation of the core themes of the armies represented.
Now, granted, this is an interpretation of the lore heavily influenced by later editions, and this is not my favourite interpretation of Bretonnia. The original Bretonnia that I grew up with in 3rd edition was a wicked satire of pre-revolutionary France, where the debauched nobility play out a fantasy of being chivalrous knights while the peasantry lived in squalor. Bretonnian armies at that time were these small groups of knights in beautiful, ornate, shining armour, leading militias of conscripted peasantry named for either how they were regarded by the Nobles (or possibly crimes they committed that led them to getting handed a farm implement and told to fight orcs).
Oldhammer Bretonnian lore was dark humour, and that kinda left Bretonnia stranded when 4th edition bowdlerized the setting to make it more "family friendly". So they needed a more general fantasy hook to separate them from the Empire, and going Arthurian was an interesting choice, and I honestly really like some of the things they've done with the iconography since (Perry's The Green Knight must be one of top ten miniatures ever sculpted).
That said, the unicorns and pegasi kinda feel a bit Lisa Frank for Warhammer. Like Tomb Kings, Brets seemed to exist on just a slightly different wavelength than the other inhabitants of the Old World. So I found it very appropriate for those two armies to spearhead this new gameline that is on a slightly different wavelength to Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Anyways, point is that I was happy with TOW's initial army lists and that simply left the Legacy lists to be decent enough to make the game my hobby home for a bit. I wouldn't have minded, still won't mind, if the Legacy lists aren't "as good" as the official armies. I don't mind playing the game on "hard mode" just out of love for playing Skaven, win or lose. Just so long as they weren't horribly broken.
And Monday morning there they were. And I read them. At first madly scanning across all of them, stopping for sightseeing tours of old favourites.
And you know what? They're pretty good. Maybe far better than I anticipated. I feel, right now, having consumed all the material presented for TOW thus far, that it currently offers a complete version of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Overall, I'm pleased. They seem to be good expressions of the essence of those army concepts. I like the way that certain special/rare troop types are tied to the types of Lords that you take, it 's a good way of evoking the lore and themes.
To give a bit of context, I've played Skaven in every edition of WFB except 1st and 5th , and early AOS (not to mention Man O War, Mordheim, Warmaster, and a host of other rat-themed not-Skaven in non-GW wargames), and I own and have read to the point that most of the spines are broken every Skaven-themed army book and rules mention from 2nd edition Ravenous Hordes to the last AOS book. I am not mentioning this juvenile non-accomplishment in a misguided attempt to brag, rather I'm just trying to give an indication of the perspective from which I'm evaluating the TOW Legacy List. Being a fan of Skaven, I have the weakness of any fandom where you come to every new iteration of a concept with pre-conceptualised notions of what is or is not an acceptable interpretation. I freely admit to this weakness in regards to Warhammer, Skaven in particular.
OK, now I'm going to say something maybe a bit controversial among my assumed audience, but I think the best Skaven army list, from Oldhammer until now, as far as evoking the spirit of the concept, pure adaptation distillation was the freebie legacy pdfs released at the beginning of AOS.
I know, I know. Keep the tomatoes and pitchforks at bay for just a moment.
Irrespective of the AoS rules system overall, only looking at how the Skaven were translated and presented in rules form (who were admittedly spared some of the more "humorous"(?) Special Rules), that initial pdf was evocative, perfectly captured the character of the Skaven, and IMHO, the rules came the closest to reflecting the lore.
All clans were playable as themed, or mixed forces. There was that hilarious mix of verging on OP but horribly unreliable magi-tech, and there was that tongue-in-cheek sense of humour that reminded me off Oldhammer for the first time in many editions of SeriousHammer, the troops all seemed statted out by someone who knew exactly what these were and what made them unique, distilled to essence (just look at the Clanrat and Stormvermin special rules....um, if you can, they were free back then but no idea where you would find them now or if GW memory-holed them. I'm sure there's still places online to find them easily.
Anyways, I'm gonna show some examples to illustrate what I mean:
Magic was greatly reduced in the initial iteration of AOS, and I liked that. I liked how wizards each could use a basic attack and defend spell, and then were given signature spells to suit them. In this case, Vermintide. Not a game-winner or unit killer, just a fun little spell that can weaken the ememy a bit with some luck, but most importantly, very on theme for Skaven.
Likewise the Grey Seer's command ability, which says so much about Skaven society as a whole. It's a supervillain rule, for a race of rodent supervillains and their minions. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Skaven are the Cobra (of GI Joe) of the Old World.
And last we have Warp Tokens, just another bit of Skaven flavour. Every Special Rule evocative of one of the archetype's associated features.
Now let's look at the mainstays of any Skaven army, the ubiquitous Clanrats and Stormvermin
Strength in Numbers here is reinterpreted in a way that underlines the Skaven's character as a horde army by making Clanrat units more effective the larger they are.
And I love that Skaven tactics are even interwoven into the command model rules, standard bearers for both Clanrats and Stormvermin allowing them to retreat and charge in the same turn.
Speaking of, Stormvermin, are better than they've been in several editions, presented here as pretty much slightly better at everything than clanrats. One more attack, one point more effective To Hit and To Wound, and Bravey and Armour Save. And their Murderous Ferocity rule is Strength in Numbers tailored to a more elite unit.
This heirarchy is mirrored with the Eshin Troops, Nightrunners (who were pretty much useless for their points for a few editions) and Gutter Runners.
For the first time since the Storms of Chaos module (some of you will remember), Eshin looked like a viable mono-clan army choice. One that would require, but support, unique tactics. No Eshin Sorcerer or Triad to fill in those slots, but the Verminlord Deciever, Deathmaster Snikch, and Skaven Assassin profiles were all presented with the same quality of evocative rules reflecting the lore.
Of course, that's where you ran face first into AOS's strangest decision at rollout: no points. The General's Compendium would arrive the next year, but the point system wasn't great, and by the time they fixed the point system the updated Skaven lore had been rat-ified to fit the new setting and the original pdf made redundant.
Allright, so, a mini-tangent here. I've always found it odd that Nightrunners and Gutter Runners switched positions. In Oldhammer (up to WFB 3rd edition), Nightrunners were the elite troops and Gutter Runners were the lower dregs. That made sense to me, with the names. But starting with 4th edition they flipped them round for some reason, and I've never understood why. I mean, even in the post-third edition lore, the introduce the head of the Eshin Clan as "Nightlord", does that not imply the Night-prefix is the more esteemed? I dunno, it's not like a monkey on my back or anything, I'm fine with it, I just wanted to say that it always struck me as odd, to do in the first place and the fact that it's persisted since,
Another profile I want to point out is Rat Swarms, often ignored but I think so essential to the character of a Skaven Army.
OKay, last example, the Skaven Chieftain. This was always a rather run-of-the-mill "Below Lord" minor Hero, and the need for a BSB has been ubiquitous in effective army lists for most iterations of Skaven, so AOS streamlines this so they are one and the same.
But then you get to Treacherous Progression, which is....The Most Skaven Special Rule ever written in any work published or licensed by GW, or any imitations thereof.
It still makes me laugh.
So, of course it's not perfect. The loss of mounts for characters made me sad here and then again with TOW. I would like the Greater clans fleshed out in the way they were in 6th edition. It doesn't provide much options for customization, outside of adding command troops or chosing between two or three weapon options. The Scavenging Pile is gone (I loved that element in the 7th edition army book). Likewise skavenslaves lost the "expendable" rule, but as shooting had got as much of a nerf as magic it didn't matter much more than losing the Storm Banner. No Fell Blade - fine with that, always thought it was a bit twinky, even for Skaven. I was very surprised to see it reappear in TOW.
New Tangent - The End Times
So, I get it why there might be instinctual pushback to my bringing up early AOS in a positive light from fellow WFB refuges. Like many, I never warmed to AOS, and I lamented the death of Warhammer Fantasy Battles. It was a sad time for a lot of WFB fans, some taking it harder than others, which to me just shows how much they loved the hobby. There is, on social media, a frequent habit of treating those fans contemptuously. I find denigrating people for their emotions kinda distasteful, which is not the same as saying that I think they need to be entertained or given attention. But I can empathize with the hostility of that generation of Warhammerers, even if I don't share it, or not to that extent.
I understand that where I saw the humour in the approach of the AOS lists as a breath of fresh air, it was just as easily seen as a middle finger to the fans of the Old World, depending on how maliciously one regarded GW at that point (and that was during the company's nadir as far as consumer relations, even for a company that has had a bad reputation for as long as most player's lifespans).
So, my initial perception of AOS (not the game itself, just that period of transition), looking back over a decade later, was coloured by a few things:
I'm enough of a grognard to remember the switch from 3rd to 4th edition, even if I was probably younger than most of the wargaming demographic. I got into Warhammer young, via the original RPG. And, it may not seem like it now, but at the time that felt as jarring of a transition. I have a lot of love for Middlehammer, especially the Skaven of that era (well, not so much the post-Goodwin minis from Maurader, but they were better than the monkeyrats). Anyways, I just think my experience of that sorta cushioned the impact of AOS, even though it was an apocalypse level peace out, instead of just a bowdlerization. Both were tonal switches, just of different magnitudes.
Moreover, I'd already gotten involved with the Oldhammer ...movement? Scene? Blogosphere and Facebook fandom? while 8th was at it's height, and I'd roped some friends into games of 3rd and 6th edition interspersed between our regular gaming. We'd even started playing Warmaster by the time the End Times debuted.
So 8th wasn't the entirety of my Warhammer Fantasy experience, and I didn't feel like I was "losing" it in the same way as other fans. But that doesn't mean I didn't feel it's loss, or wince to see AOS dancing around in it's carcass.
I wish that GW had pushed out those last two or three army books and completed 8th edition. It was a fun edition. There were rules exploits, but we all knew them and could patch them pretty easily. Optimal situation was just a revised rulebook for End Times that encapsulated all the massive FAQs and provided fixes for some of the most blatant "not in the Spirit of the Rules" tournament (but that's just me daydreaming about a past that never was, my point is only that I liked 8th Edition, despite it's flaws. I will still play it occasionally with friends who share fond memories of it).
So during the period between giving up on AOS and TOW's return, one of my gaming group had to move temporarily for work up to the NW Territories, and another simply drifted away from the hobby, and as my studies at university got more intense and Covid and some IRL tragedies and I just kinda drifted away.
I still painted up minis, for my own amusement. I got into first edition of the newest iteration of Kill Team, which was excellent. Painted a full Necron army. Then a Custodes army. Then a Nurgle army.
I kept infrequent tabs on the Oldhammer group, but after Paypal scammed me out of some money and I shut my account, I had to abandon the trading sphere (though the secondhand market inflation had already started to set in, and my collections were thankfully mostly already complete - more on that in a future post).
I briefly got into Kings of War, and continued to play Warmaster for a while. I dipped my head into historical wargaming.
I have occasionally peaked in at AOS. Many of the models are absolutely beautiful, some I plan to buy just for the joy of painting or converting it. The Gloomspite Gitz are wondrous, managing to capture some of that Oldhammer flavour while presenting technically complex dynamic poses. As much as I love the Oldhammer style, I do appreciate modern aesthetics.
But Skaven kinda languished. The army books were, on the whole, steps down from the initial pdf, despite expanding the magic and customization options for Characters. Two new models after the End Times, the Deathbringer and Doom-Rocket Warlock for the first few years. The models offered for sale were an aesthetically-jarring hodgepodge of models stretching back over 30 years, The crucial revamp of many core troops in Island of Blood was lost to poor planning in the sprue department. Price jumps applied to metal models left certain units (like Skryre Acolytes) prohibitively expensive, and AOS fostered a no-customization culture (even if this was rejected later on by the AOS28 and related movements) that compounded the issue.
There are currently rumours online of a big Skaven revamp for AoS this year. While the End Times style that carried over into early AOS (up to the Deathrunner essentially) I didn't especially care for (Stormfiends were the nadir, but overall the 12 foot tails thing was a big turn off), thankfully the recent excellent small offerings of themed Skaven warbands for specialist gamelines have walked back those elements. If the revamp folows suit with those it may be wonderful.
But the revamp is likely going to come with the loss of many classic troop types, as Skaven are further fashioned into an army fitting the AOS lore. I am interested to see what comes, but I also think that TOW's legacy list may be the last gasp, in the foreseeable future, of the classic Skaven army.
Upon which I Get Back to the Point
I'd say that it's roughly equal to either the original 4th edition army book or the 6th edition army list presented in Ravening Hordes. Meaning it is a solid expression of the concept of Skaven, but toned down quite a bit from the excesses of later editions, and provides enough options to feel "complete", but doesn't not include everything that I'd like. The list is solid, playable, and captures the flavour of the army as well as most WFB army books.
What it Lacks in comparison to the AOS legacy Army List:
Well, no Skavenslaves. Not sure if they just felt too unbalancing (they were admittedly exploitative in 8th), it was simply not a unit they'd made specific models for since in decades, or even just best not a subject to bring up these days. And any of those I find completely understandable, so I don't lament the loss of them, as a concept, beyond the fact that Skavens imprisoning their own race and throwing them into wars was an instant indication of how evil they were.
But I don't need rules for that. If I want to present a unit of Skavenslaves, using just the vanilla Clanrats profile with no upgrades is fine as far of the rules. No more cheap as chip bricks, but that got played out in 8th to it's inevitable conclusion.
I do miss Skavenslave's "expendable" rule, even wish they'd given it to clanrats for TOW. I know it was twinky, but it just fit the Skaven so well. It's not that Skaven are more evil than orcs or goblins, it's more that the others simply wouldn't think of it. Skaven are horribly cunning and ruthless in a way that's over the top even for the Grimdark Old World. Chaos and the forces of destruction are single minded and horrible, but Skaven are sneaky, backstabby, and maniacally clever.
But I don't mean to imply that losing it is any sort of dealbreaker, it was not even unexpected.
I've already discussed the Vermin Lord, but I'll reiterate my sadness over the loss, even as I consider it a perfectly understandable omission in context. Losing any mount options was also expected, but I'm even more sad over their loss, as they provided fantastic modelling opportunities. For now, they will have to exist as unit fillers.
The Dreaded Thirteenth was kinda fun, but not a loss I mourn. I do wish Pestilens had gotten a few more spell options, they used to have a whole Spell list of their own. But again, something I'm willing to accept as part of the overall magic nerf, which I approve of.
Other than that, nothing major or unexpected missing.
OVERVIEW
TOW leans more into the army list presentations of Middlehammer and 6th edition, diluting the chaos of later (and earlier) editions. I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I also have watched the 8th Age group and Kings of War struggle to find a new focus for the army which often seems a bit too much just "another Horde army, but with a rat theme". This is a few steps above that, IMO, as long as you are already walking in with a knowledge of the lore.
The core units are fine. Stormvermin are a little underpowered, but can sorta act like shock troops in a pinch. The Grey Seer is once again nearly an insta-take, and the Warlord and Warlock Engineer both have quite a few customization options.
The Screaming Bell seems like it's worth the points, and though the wackiness of the results of chiming the bell are predictably diluted, it still provides the best possible protection for a general.
ESHIN
As a recompense for that and the lack of Snikch, the Master Assassin resurfaces from the Storm of Chaos list (shoulda just called it "Deathmaster", AOS got that one night), so we can at least have our little Eshin contingents. And the Master Assassin's profile & cost...beautiful. It is very much exactly what it's supposed to be, a Lord hunter. Give it Weeping Blades, and hide it until your opponent is least suspecting. It's not going to take out a Demon Prince, or 300+ point kitted out Vampire/Elf Lord, but it could go toe to toe with a vanilla Strigoi, which is a huge improvement over the under-statted and over-costed Assassin from 8th edition. It's not an automatic take - the Asassin is a gamble, but a cheap enough gamble to find a home in 2-3K games.
Nightrunners are...passable. Not great, and probably a hard sell over Clanrats or even Stormvermin at that price point - definitely a "lore" choice to take over tournament listing, but still better overall than 7th-8th edition Nightrunners, which I think no one used in that edition, not just because the models were still Monkeyrat-era holdovers.
But Gutter Runners are great, just as they were before. In a standard Warlord Clan army list, Gutter Runners are likely the only Eshin troops worth hiring. The Ambush rules are a bit unreliable, but can provide a nice advantage, especially when paired with a Master Assassin to go monster or lord hunting.
MOULDER
Again, Moulder's only characters are Packmasters and Master Moulders (though these at least might actually in some cases be a worthwhile upgrade, unlike 8th), but they do all right assigning them a Warlord and Chieftain. It remains to be seen if rat darts will resurface. Moulder's biggest weakness (if someone were trying to do a Moulder-themed army), is that Rat Ogres are pretty expensive, which doesn't leave you with enough hammers to your copious anvils.
It's here that including Ratwolves would have been nice, as shock cavalry. That would have really filled in the hole for the Moulder troops.
But the HPA can fill in as a pretty devastating despite the nerfs monster choice.
Giant Rats , however, may end up being the standout in TOW. At 3 pts, they could potentially fill in the Skavenslaves niche.
PESTILENS
The Plague Priest himself is...fairly costed. Not a deal, but not unworth the points depending on the army structure. Keeping him vanilla with a Plague censer is a great combat boost to a Plague Monk Unit. Or he can play junior Grey Seer.
Plague Censer Bearers I'm iffy on, I'll need to get some battles in to judge.
The Plagueclaw Catapult seems fine. Not a top choice, but not a disadvantage if you are going for a theme.
SKRYRE
The Weapons Teams are all present and accounted for (even Poisoned Wind Mortars, which was a nice surprise). While, as I mentioned previously, they are a bit less individualized, with the risk-reward factor shrank to slightly more predictable and less OP, but they mostly all still seem good in their own way. Warpfire Thrower at least should count as Magical Attacks, and I'm not sure yet about how effective the PWM is going to be, treated as handheld mini stone thrower, but beyond that each fills their role (which isn't big) pretty well at a decent price.
Jezzails are good, but the nerf to all shooting in this edition may leave them as a rarer pick. Like PCB's, I'm a bit iffy on Poisoned Wind Globadiers. But the skirmish rules in TOW are interesting and I'll have to put them through the paces before I can properly judge the value of units like this.
Both Doomwheel and Warp Lightning Cannon are effective and affordable choices. Again, a bit subdued in comparison to earlier presentations, but still very viable support unit choices even outside of Skryre-themed list.
CONCLUSIONS
In my next post I'm going to go over the army composition for the Oldhammer Skaven army that I am prepping for TOW play. We'll also see the return of a Tour of the Underhive, with a few amazing Skaven armies that I did not get to before this blog went on sabbatical. And something else rather special coming up...